Interview with Leah

[00:00:00] Speaker A: The best music from the 60s to today, IPL radio. Hello and welcome back. You normally would be listening to that's Entertainment, but Cheryl's off sick today, so we're taking over the airwaves and we've got a very special guest in today. So James is joining us. How you going? [00:00:21] Speaker B: Very good, thank you, Tris. Pleasure to be here. [00:00:23] Speaker A: Pleasure to have you. I think this is what, your second time or third time? [00:00:27] Speaker B: I think this would be my second time, yeah. [00:00:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Cool. Okay. And we also have Leah. [00:00:32] Speaker C: Hi. [00:00:33] Speaker A: How you feeling? [00:00:34] Speaker C: Yeah, not too bad, thank you. A little nervous but good. [00:00:36] Speaker A: Yep, you'll be fine. This is a difficult conversation and we just want to put some parameters out. So before we start that if you are watching this or listening and you are affected by suicide talk, then you can reach out to lifeline on 13, 11, 14 and just look after yourself. It's obviously we. We've basically said that's the conversation we're going to have. So do you just want to just share a little bit about what happened with your daughter? [00:01:06] Speaker C: Okay, so I lost my daughter on the 2nd of September in 2024, so. And that was to suicide. So we've just approached the two year mark. What details exactly would you like? [00:01:22] Speaker A: So what was she like? [00:01:23] Speaker C: Like Maddie. [00:01:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:25] Speaker C: Yeah. So Maddie was incredibly intelligent, had the best wit, just insanely clever and insanely sarcastic and smart. Always had to be right. She was obviously 17, so. [00:01:40] Speaker B: Oh, I like her already. [00:01:41] Speaker C: Yeah. Always had to be right. Loved an argument. We saw life very different politically. She loved to poke the bear. It was a political free house. I made it that way on purpose because we saw life very differently. So she would poke the bear all the time because that's what she. She got enjoyment out of passion and out of having those sort of conversations. So. But textbook smart. Didn't have to study. She was just amazing that way. Very much a at home body though, until just recently before she passed away when she actually started having more of a social life, which was fantastic because I'd always said to her, you know, get out, make mistakes, leave, because you're only young. [00:02:26] Speaker A: That's how you learn. [00:02:26] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Go out, do some stupid things. So it was nice to finally see her actually do that. Very nostalgic, sentimental. Incredibly sentimental. Yeah, yeah. Loved her cats. Loved her little brother. [00:02:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:42] Speaker C: But yeah, argumentative and very, very [00:02:47] Speaker B: well, [00:02:47] Speaker C: it's probably the best word. Very dramatic. Yeah. Everyone who knew Maddie knew the drama. [00:02:53] Speaker A: She liked the drama. [00:02:54] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And the smaller the thing is, the bigger she would make a Big deal out of it. Whereas other larger issues were the ones that you wouldn't hear about. So I think that's actually important in her story because that was obviously what was being, you know, held internally. [00:03:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:07] Speaker C: And the smaller things was what she would make the big deal about, so. Yeah. But everyone used to joke about how dramatic she was, so. [00:03:13] Speaker B: Oh, God, I miss being 17 and knowing everything. [00:03:16] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:03:16] Speaker C: She knew it all. It was amazing. Amazing. I miss being yelled at and be told that she's like that. She was smarter than me. I missed that. So. [00:03:24] Speaker A: Yeah. So you said she was book smart. So she was doing well at school. [00:03:28] Speaker C: Amazing at school. [00:03:29] Speaker A: Friends. Yep. [00:03:30] Speaker C: Great. [00:03:31] Speaker A: Social. [00:03:31] Speaker C: Yep. [00:03:32] Speaker B: Very. [00:03:32] Speaker C: Yeah. Sociable. She did. She changed schools in year 11. So she passed away just before graduating in year 12. [00:03:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:39] Speaker C: And year seven through to year 10. Hated school. [00:03:43] Speaker A: It was the school. [00:03:43] Speaker C: So she had 56% attendance, wasn't thriving. So we did change her school at her request. Completely different child. Yeah. So out. That's when she started living life. Yeah. She would go out with friends, she would do things socially, she got a boyfriend, she did the whole work. She was doing extracurricular activities at school, but in terms of school work itself, she didn't study, she didn't have to, she aced everything. So. Yeah. [00:04:09] Speaker A: So the change in school actually improved her well being. [00:04:12] Speaker C: Remarkably. Yeah. Yeah. So previously when she was through to year seven in year ten, we did have significant mental health concerns. [00:04:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:19] Speaker C: When she hit year 11 and moves, was there any. Everything changed. [00:04:23] Speaker A: Was there any hint of suicidal ideation when she was going through, even though she was going through that stress? [00:04:28] Speaker C: Yes. [00:04:29] Speaker A: There was no hint that she was that way. [00:04:31] Speaker C: No. What I've said is actually like, had this happened between the years of year 7 to year 10, this wouldn't have surprised me. Possibly. That's when she was actively seeking services. When she changed schools, she dropped all services and didn't need it. She said she was good and she was in a really good head space. Even that weekend. She passed away on a Monday. She was out with friends the night that she passed away. She gave me the dates for her Bali trip to book for her upcoming 18th birthday. She was in a great head space. So. Yeah. No, when you look back, there are small signs, but they were really small, just small little conversation pieces kind of signs. Like for example. And as I said, you would dismiss them because they weren't anything big. [00:05:15] Speaker A: I guess that's the important thing though, isn't it? Because they learned they're insignificant. [00:05:19] Speaker C: Yes. [00:05:20] Speaker A: In hindsight you can Recognize it. If you share that information and someone else goes, oh, you know, my kid's doing that, then. [00:05:26] Speaker C: Yeah. So one of the conversations that happened was Maddie had a dedicated shell like storage drawer in the fridge. No one was allowed to use it. It was just for Maddie's stuff. And one other person who was living in the house at the time was looking for some space in the fridge that weekend. And Maddie said, you can use mine. I don't need it anymore. Which is very minor. [00:05:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:47] Speaker C: But in hindsight, now that person lives with that. Why didn't I ask that question? Why don't you need your fridge drawer anymore? And another example, and as I said, they are. They're all very small things. But she was out driving with her friends, and she was desperate to play her. Her playlist of, like she said, you want to listen to my sad songs? And the friend went, no, let's not do that. But Maddie wanted her to listen to the sad song. So it was almost like it was an invitation to have a conversation, but it wasn't recognized because unless you sort of are aware, as I said, now, looking back, there are signs. But at that time, I probably wouldn't have thought about that either. [00:06:27] Speaker A: Like, and that's really hard. That's. I mean, you'd never associate that with. [00:06:31] Speaker C: No, no. And that's how small they were. So. Yeah. [00:06:36] Speaker B: So it can be difficult talking to others. Do you find any recurring themes with things like that? Do you find other parents relate to stories like that? [00:06:44] Speaker C: It's so very. Yeah, they definitely relate. I think with suicide, there's just so many if. Like what ifs and regrets. Like, the Thursday before Maddie passed away, we had a massive argument. I was at work, and I think about that conversation constantly. And go. Had that gone differently? I mean, we repaired it that night. We were. Sorry. We repaired it by the time we were off the phone call. And I was heightened and angry because of my work environment. And she was heightened because she couldn't find a car park in the city. And she was in getting her passport picked up. And I told her not to go because I knew she would explain, like, struggle with getting parking. And I think about that conversation all the time. But, yeah, everyone, I think, who has been affected by suicide has the what ifs. You know, what if I did this? [00:07:27] Speaker A: But the week before she was applying for passport. [00:07:30] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. The night that she passed away, she. She finally gave me dates because she wanted to go to Bali for her 18th birthday. And I'd be nagging her for dates as to when she was going to go. And finally that night, she gave me the dates. [00:07:41] Speaker A: Do you think she intended to die? Like, sometimes. Very good question, you know, I mean, it doesn't seem like if you can apply for your passport, it doesn't seem like there's a lot of planning that's gone into it. [00:07:52] Speaker C: So Maddie had written letters, very lengthy letters, and she'd been writing them, from my understanding, at least for two weeks. She had a list of things to do, which I found on her phone when I got her phone back, of things to do before she died. I did say when the police took. Took her phone on the day that she passed away, I said to my niece, I said, she's going to have wiped her phone because Maddie was a hugely private person. And my niece said, yeah, absolutely, she's going to have wiped her phone. Anyway, the phone came back. It wasn't wiped, it was on charge as well. There's a few small things to me that go. I don't know if she intended to be as successful as what she was or if she was just naturally gifted at point this. This as well. But there was definitely thoughts of it. Maddie did have a plan, which I found out about. She actually wrote a letter when she started in year 11. She had to write a letter to herself to open on graduation. And in that letter she had that she was planning on making it to 19. So she didn't make it to 19, she didn't make it to 18. And I often go, if only she made it to 19, I wonder if she would have seen life differently when she was 18, out of school. So. But whether she did intend at that particular point in time to succeed. I do go between. Yep, she did, because the letters were there. And no, I actually don't think she. [00:09:13] Speaker A: The passport kind of bothers me. Like, if. If it's. Well, yeah, you know, if it's. If you've been thinking about it for two weeks. [00:09:19] Speaker C: But a lot of people, and this is one of the signs of suicide that people tend to miss, is people actually make plans. Yeah, they make plans. And people off, not. Not often, but in certain cases will be happier in life because they've come to terms with their decision. And that's the sign that people often miss with suicide. It's sort of like the. Not the hidden sign, but one of the less recognizable signs because you go, all right, you're in a great headspace, you know, you're doing well. But that's often because they've come to [00:09:42] Speaker A: terms with their decision, especially after They've attempted suicide. And there's that. I think I know a couple of months window where people then kind of heal a little bit, but then they got more energy and then they're more likely then to. To try again. [00:09:56] Speaker C: And I think there are two different types, and I could be wrong. This is just my opinion, but I think there is definitely planned suicide and then there is an impulse where. And I think that's where intentions necessarily be to succeed. But it's happened. You know, you've done it correctly and it's happened. Yeah. And I think that there's two very different types of suicide. Yeah. But I don't know where Maddie sits on that one. And I think everyone who is close to her and loved her, we all have a different opinion. And I think at the end of the day, because we'll never know, you sit with what's more comfortable for you. So for me personally, it's more comfortable for me to say I don't think she intended, but for example, my mother is confident with she intended. So it's whatever sits, I think. [00:10:38] Speaker A: Does she give any clues in the letters that she wrote whether she was intending to? [00:10:42] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, she did. The letters themselves, there were four letters. One of the letters was very clear, but the others, I think they were done to make us feel better, for example. And the letters are a very interesting thing. And it's. And it's a constant topic once you're involved in, like, having a significant loss from suicide. You get on all the Facebook groups and the conversation's all very similar. And people are. Did they leave a note? Did they not leave a note? People have different opinions of the note. I was very angry with my note, with my letter when I first received it, because there was so much similarity to the letter that my niece received. And she was angry as well because they were very similar. Mine was longer and more detailed, but they were very similar. And it took me a while to come to terms with the fact that. Wait a minute. She did her best in that moment to try to make it make sense and soften the blow for us. Whether it did or not, because it actually didn't. That was Maddie leaving a final act of love to give us some sort of closure. [00:11:47] Speaker B: So. [00:11:48] Speaker C: Yeah. So there was no real reason necessarily that was specified in the letter to me. No. [00:11:53] Speaker A: Did she say what was troubling her to lead her to that point or. [00:11:57] Speaker C: Yeah, she did, but that's something that I probably can't talk about only because of the personal circumstances. [00:12:03] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. [00:12:04] Speaker C: But, yeah, no, There was some indication in that. [00:12:07] Speaker A: And she just didn't mention that to you or anyone else. [00:12:10] Speaker C: She. On the outside, she was traveling really, really well with the situation. Really well. You know, I would check in with her and she was great. She said it was needed, but deep down. And when I went through her phone, it was a very different story. So she had put on a facade that everything was okay. [00:12:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:29] Speaker C: But internally she struggled immensely with it. Yeah. [00:12:32] Speaker A: And I. I guess when it's a loved one, like, they don't want to upset you or make you worried, and so they pretend that they're coping and then. Yeah, it eats away at them. [00:12:41] Speaker C: Yeah, that's right. Well, what I've learned with Maddie as well, like what I was saying before, the small things, she would make a huge deal about the small things. Massive. But the big things that she really internally struggled with, you would barely hear anything of. So. [00:12:53] Speaker A: Yeah, but that was part of her coping strategy. Just suppress it and not talk to about it. [00:12:57] Speaker C: That's exactly right. Yeah. One can only assume. I don't know now, but yeah. [00:13:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And. And so the day that she passed. Yep. What happened? Like, did you find her or. [00:13:10] Speaker C: Yeah. So I was still awake with her on Sunday evening after midnight, and it was actually quite funny. And this is how sometimes you won't know. We were actually. I was sitting on the lounge and she came out to talk to me. This is just after I booked the dates for Bali. And I just fired someone at work. I've never fired anyone in my life. She. She used to always tell me that I was too weak in management. I needed to fire someone. So I was like, maddie, I finally fired someone. And we were laughing, you know, barely laughing. She's like, finally, you grew some balls. You know, when you've actually done it. And I was. We were talking about that and having a great laugh about it because it'd gone on for years with her telling me that I was too weak a manager. I needed to be harder on my people. And then she asked if she could give me a hug. And so I got up and I gave her a hug. And she said, we haven't hugged in a while. Which was true, because she wasn't a big hugger. And her hair smelled beautiful. And I'm so glad I told her her hair smelled beautiful. And I said to her, I said, is that because it's the new shampoo that you use? Because earlier that week, I did the grocery shopping and I couldn't buy her brand of shampoo. And she was furious at me because I brought a different one. And she was so angry about it yet again, the small things. And her hair smelled divine. And I said, you know, is that the shampoo and the condition dish? And she's like, yeah. And we laughed about it. And she said, you were right. And then she said, I love you. And I said, I love you too. And she thanked me and I assumed that was for Bali when she told me that in the morning when I woke up, I was running late for work. And the first thing I noticed, and this sounds ridiculous, but the dishes were done. Our entire relationship, we had argued over the dishes. Maddie had never once done the dishes voluntarily. It was only if she wanted a day off, school, school or if she wanted something, we would have to argue and I would be like, it needs to be done before I get home. And often I would still get home. And she'd been off for the day from school and the dishes still weren't done. And it was just a pet hate of mine. We argued over the dishes constantly. And the dishes were done. And I was like, oh my God, Maddie did the dishes. You know, it was like a real shock. And I was just, I smiled, you know, I was like, wow, this is really cool. And then I went down to her room. I had to put paperwork and on her bed because she had an appointment for the day. She was going to see a psychologist for an ADHD diagnosis. And outside her bedroom, her bedroom was off to the right. And then the next door over was my niece who lived there. And outside her door, Maddie had put our shoes. Maddie passed away in September. In July we went on a camping trip and Maddie had left her dirty shoes at Trin's door, which drove Trin insane because Maddy was incredibly clean. She didn't want them in her room so she just put them there. And trim was every day, can you move your shoes? You know, and she wouldn't do it, but her shoes were away. So I was like, oh, she's put her shoes away. I put the paperwork on a bed. I, I saw her that morning, she looked like she was sleeping. And then I went to work and I was calling her cuz her appointment was at 12 o', clock, calling her to make sure she was awake. She wasn't answering her phone. And then the mind just started ticking. And the first thing I went was, she's done the dishes, she's done the dishes. And at that point I was ringing my niece and saying, are you home? And she said, no, I'm not, I'm out on an appointment, but I'm, you know, I will be home. Then I'd ring Maddie again. Then I ring Trin, how far away are you? And then it clicked and it dawned on me. There was other signs, which I should mention. I don't know if I'm allowed to mention, though. There was medication on her bed, but that wasn't unusual for Maddie because she had medication out all the time. Time. She was a walking, talking pharmaceutical shop. And she was always organizing them because she was ocd, so she always had them out in different colors. [00:16:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:45] Speaker C: I did see the medication in the morning, but I didn't think about it because I'd seen it so many times. Yeah, I didn't even think about it. But it was the dishes that when I was at work and I went, no, she did the dishes. She's done something. So I immediately left work and rung my niece again on the way home and said, don't go in her room, she's done something. And she said, I think she has too. [00:17:07] Speaker A: So she got the same feeling. [00:17:08] Speaker C: She got the same feeling as well. Yeah. And then. So when I got home, my niece was in her bedroom with her door closed and I went into Maddie's room and she was where she was that morning. So she hadn't moved. Yeah. And she had passed away. [00:17:22] Speaker A: Yeah. It's really hard to kind of understand the thoughts that would have gone through your head. [00:17:29] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:17:30] Speaker A: What was the first few weeks, first few months like? [00:17:33] Speaker C: I think, and this is a common. You hear this repeated across all the different support groups and that you attend your first year is very much shock. I think people from the outside looking in would have been looking at me going, what are you doing? Even on the day that Maddie passed away, you know, my mum came over and was with Maddie, spending time with Maddie. Then I kicked her outside because I was like, you need to find the cats, because they were Maddie's cats. I was like, what if one of them's got out? So I've got her out looking for the cat cats instead of spending time with her granddaughter in her grieving state. You know. You know, at Maddie's celebration of life, I'm telling people that the hair looked beautiful. They were probably thinking, what is wrong with you? Like, but you're in shock. You're in denial because you're expecting them to still come through the door. It doesn't really hit you, I don't think, until possibly the second year. And that's why a lot of people say the second year of grieving is A lot harder because number one, your support network drops away. Which in my case I'm incredibly grateful my support network hasn't dropped away. But you do hear that as a repeat occurrence as well that people drop [00:18:36] Speaker B: off but there's sort of a momentum to it that sides a little bit. [00:18:39] Speaker C: Yeah, that's right. So yeah. And number two, as I said, the shocks worn off, you know, it's more of a reality. You're coming into the first, you know, the first anniversary, the first birthday. They weren't here for everything first that they're not actually here for. So the first year is definitely shocking. [00:18:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:54] Speaker C: And doing incredibly strange things. [00:18:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:57] Speaker B: That's actually quite helpful to understand is that there's not a. There's not a schedule, but there is an ebb and flow. [00:19:04] Speaker C: Yeah. Very much so. [00:19:05] Speaker B: Sense. And I actually find that very educational to hear that the second year is also something too. [00:19:12] Speaker C: Yes. [00:19:12] Speaker B: Because I almost feel like, you know, a year is almost symbolic that we've gone through the seasons, we've gone through all the important, important dates and now it's time where, you know, time to move along. Where there's a. There's another process, another wave, another sort of time. [00:19:30] Speaker C: Very much so. And I suppose with suicide and I. I'm assuming it would be with any age, but because Maddie passed away before she was 18, she was an adolescent. So dealing with the coroner's court. So when you deal with the coroner's office, that is an 18 month to 3 year average process before you find answers. [00:19:48] Speaker B: Okay. [00:19:48] Speaker C: So theoretically, whilst for me it was beneficial dealing with the coroner's office, I can't actually say it wasn't because that was the only conversation I could have where we were talking about Maddie in present tense. [00:20:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:01] Speaker C: Instead of past tense. So for me, as awful as it sounds, it was very therapeutic to be able to have. It's nice to get an email about Maddie. Whether it's for the most awful of reasons. She was still active in society and people were still getting things for her. [00:20:15] Speaker A: It keeps her actively alive. When my mom passed away, my dad really struggled to close accounts. [00:20:22] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:20:23] Speaker A: And that was, you know, something that he. He really struggled with. [00:20:26] Speaker C: 100. Maddie's phone. I will not ever get rid of that phone until the day it dies. Because people still talk to her. [00:20:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:34] Speaker C: And send her messages. But yeah, the, the coroner's process, when that finishes, that's sort of when reality I suppose. And I was very fortunate it finished. Well, I suppose I shouldn't say fortunate because I relied on that so much. But Once that process closes, I think that's when you can look at properly grieving, because then you're just left with, everything's done. And that's what I struggled with, was everything is. Now I've got nothing to follow up on. [00:20:59] Speaker B: So I almost hear here, potentially three stages, which is the initial shock. And then once that shock, however long that may be, begins to subside, it can reveal some grieving of loss. And then there's sort of another. Another phase that might come that people resist that is fight some kind of finality. [00:21:26] Speaker C: That's exactly what it is. Yeah. Yeah. You don't want to ever reach an end of doing anything for your child. So even if it is dealing with the coroner's office, you don't want that to stop. Really. Well, for me personally, everyone's experience. Experience is very different. But it kept Maddie. It kept me busy doing things on her behalf. You always want to do things for your children. [00:21:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:45] Speaker C: And when you stop having things to do, like, for example, I did not want to apply for her death certificate. I was like, I'm not going to do that. [00:21:54] Speaker A: That's a kind of finality of it, isn't it? [00:21:56] Speaker C: It's final. I have no reason to have it, to be perfectly honest, because she was an adolescent and I wanted to have something left to follow up on. If I wanted to do it, it automatically came. And it absolutely devastated me. It set me so back far in my healing journey because I was like, they've taken that away from me and my right to pursue that death certificate if I wanted it. I wanted to have something left to go, all right, now, you know, I'll apply for the death certificate. [00:22:24] Speaker B: Almost like it's not theirs to officiate, for you to officiate. [00:22:29] Speaker C: That's exactly what it is. Yeah. I felt like I was denied that, that. Which is, I guess, silly in many ways. I should have assumed. I was told I would have to apply for it, but it went to the funeral director automatically, of course, which I should have realized would happen, but I didn't because I was told I would need to apply for it. I was like, that's a later date thing. Something I can follow up with later and give me something still to do. [00:22:52] Speaker B: So if we talk about these sort of. I know I mentioned. I just sort of made up these sort of three stages. [00:22:57] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:22:59] Speaker B: Do you find yourself still somehow in the second to third stage, as if there's not a finality or have you found a post phase for yourself or is that not the correct. [00:23:11] Speaker C: I think Love probably is not final. There's no fun. Like, when there's love, there is no final date for that. It's just how it transforms and how you handle it, I think. [00:23:20] Speaker B: Transforms. There we go. [00:23:22] Speaker C: I. I don't want to live in a world where Maddie doesn't exist, exists. Her name will, and while she's physically not here, her legacy will live on. And I think that's really important. And the conversations need to continue to happen where I will bring Maddie into a conversation at any point that I can. I will bring her up, and people probably get sick of hearing it, but she will always be my child, and I will always love her. And that is the only way I can keep her memory alive is by continuing to talk to her. So I think it just transforms. You go through the formal process, and then you need to look at all right, what's now, you know? And when the formal process ended, I absolutely did hit a bit of a rock bottom with like, what am I going to do now? But that, I guess, is where I've gone. You know what, you can sit there and you can be depressed about it and realize that this is the rest of your life, or you can do something better to navigate it in a more healthy way and keep her legacy alive by doing different things, which is like what I was talking about, the Tree of Souls. [00:24:18] Speaker A: Do you want to just share about what you've done there with keeping your legacy alive? [00:24:22] Speaker C: Yeah. So what we do, I came across an initiative on Facebook called the Tree of Souls, which started over in Victoria. The first year that Maddie passed was only a couple of months. Obviously, she passed in September, the first Christmas. I obviously wasn't doing it. That's when I found it. But that basically is where bereaved parents of any loss, not just suicide, have an opportunity to honor their child in a memorial at Christmas time. So it's all trees that have individual photos with their. Like a bauble with their child and their name and their age. And it gives parents a space, a safe space to come to, to connect with other families and also to sit in silence. And I think it's really important to sit in silence with it. [00:25:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:03] Speaker C: So for the second year, the Tree of Souls was available. The person that had it when in 2024, was no longer able to have it due to family commitments. So I was like, that's something that I need to throw my energy at because I'm very much a. I have to be doing tasks. I think that's how I heal, is by doing things. I can't just sit there. You know, I love to write, but I cannot just sit there. That doesn't work for me. So I need to physically be throwing myself at projects. Yeah. So I straight away went, yep, I'm going to do this. So that was sort of like the first project that I did and we ran it last year and I had the. The only tree in wa. There's ones all across Australia now, but there's only one in WA at the moment. [00:25:46] Speaker A: Whereabouts is it? [00:25:47] Speaker C: In Byford. So at my house. Yeah. So it's hosted at people's homes. I don't think there's any in Australia that aren't hosted at a house at the moment currently. [00:25:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:56] Speaker C: But it's out the front, so it's like a visible display out the front. And as you know, parents are provided with the addresses and they can come and actively visit it, spend as much time. You know, you have an open night where parents are welcome to come and you'll put things out. But basically it's an open space that's allowed from December through to January. [00:26:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:13] Speaker C: And parents are allowed to come and visit and spend as much time as they want there. Yeah. [00:26:17] Speaker A: It sounds like a really beautiful, healing kind of place. [00:26:20] Speaker C: It's a very simple idea, but it's hugely impactful. Hugely impactful at what is, for any person who's lost a child, a significantly harder time of year. Christmas, like, it's just, I think, is the pits, Christmas time when you have child loss. So it does. It provides. I don't know. I don't know what even is the word. It impacted me hugely. I was like, this is just such an important space. That's why I openly went, yes, I'm going to host it, for lack of [00:26:49] Speaker B: a better word, maybe an outlet. [00:26:52] Speaker C: Yeah. An outlet, yes. [00:26:53] Speaker B: There's energy of some sort. Somewhere. [00:26:55] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:26:55] Speaker B: And it needs to go somewhere than to turn on itself, so to speak. [00:26:59] Speaker C: There you go. Absolutely. Yeah. [00:27:00] Speaker B: An outlet. [00:27:01] Speaker C: That's what it is. It's. It's an outlet. Yeah. And it's just. It's a warm space and it's with people who understand. [00:27:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:10] Speaker C: So, yeah. So that we. I did that. I'm just now talking to Reneke, who started the project over in Victoria, about what it looks like for this year and whether I'm on board. And of course I'm on board in my head, now that we've gone through Maddie's anniversary, I'm on board because it's one. What's the next thing I can do? So very much in the mindset now of all right, how am I going to, you know, get this up and running again and all the rest of it? So we did that. We do have. It's not a private Facebook group, but what I did in the very early days. And this is what I'm talking about with stock. So Maddie's passed away on the 2nd of September. My birthday is the 6th of October, and she was. Her birthday's the 13th of September. She was meant to be turning 18, and I was turning 40 the year she passed away. Way. But on my 40th birthday, I wrote this letter and just poured my heart and soul into it. When I look at it now, I go, I could have worded it better, but obviously I was literally. [00:28:05] Speaker A: That was. That's what you needed. [00:28:07] Speaker C: Losing my daughter. I didn't really know where my head was, but it was basically a positive message that I just wanted out there. So I made. We'd always talked about having messages in a bottle. You know, Maddie always wanted to release a message in a bottle. We never did it. So I was like, stuff it. I'm gonna release messages in a bottle on behalf of Maddie with Maddie's story and a message of hope and that you're never alone. No matter what you think you're up against, you are never alone. So that was one thing that we did. So, yeah, we've released a whole heap of messages in bottles that have gone out with a positive message. Some have been found, which is amazing. [00:28:40] Speaker A: So we've done like a contact details on there. [00:28:43] Speaker C: Yeah. So in the letter, it gives the link to the page and everything. And you. Yeah, it tells you what to do. It tells you, like, the number your bottle is and to post the number of the bottle and where you found it. [00:28:51] Speaker A: And you had people messaging you saying that they found it. [00:28:54] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, we have. We did one on her second Ann anniversary last year. Oh, sorry. Her first anniversary last year. And I think someone's found that one. And it was a significantly important bottle because that one was the original letter. A letter one year on of reflection as to what loss looks like a year later. And also her friends and family put letters in it as well. So it was a really important bottle. But I think the message definitely got lost in translation. I think I found who found that bottle. But unfortunately, English isn't their first language and we're not getting very far. And I'm like, oh, that's so, so disappointing that. That. [00:29:31] Speaker A: It's amazing what you can do with Google Translate, though. You can. [00:29:34] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I tried translating my message into Puppy New guinea, because I did a Facebook stalk of this person and trying to. I got nowhere, but I'm pretty sure it got found. But some. You know, the. Like, the first bottle that was found was really special because it was found by a lady who lost her nephew to suicide. And she said that she had never spoken about her loss, but this gave her the. The voice, basically, to speak about her nephew's loss. So, yeah, so it was more about. Hopefully they find the right people. So we've done that. And then most recently, when I met James, we've just been. We. I created an event for Maddie's second anniversary, which was all to do with mental health awareness, you know, suicide. Obviously, September is all about suicide awareness and suicide prevention. I lost Maddie in September, so it's quite a heavy month. [00:30:24] Speaker A: Yeah, I was thinking that. [00:30:25] Speaker C: No, it's a blessing as well, though, because Maddie. I gave birth to Maddie in September. She was born in September. So life was in September, but then also losses, also in September, and it's. It's very heavy with suicide. [00:30:36] Speaker B: I also read on the Facebook page that we're approaching Maddie's favorite time of year. [00:30:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:41] Speaker C: Yeah. She loved Christmas. Yeah. [00:30:43] Speaker B: Oh, that's cool. [00:30:44] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:30:45] Speaker B: I would also like to take time to thank you for that initiative, especially with the flowers. [00:30:52] Speaker A: I was. [00:30:52] Speaker B: I was just walking along with my girlfriend, and I think it was your other daughter. [00:30:58] Speaker C: It was my foster daughter. [00:30:59] Speaker B: Yeah, your foster daughter and one of Maddie's best friends. And it was a beautiful moment and a beautiful story, and I walked away with a nice feeling. But what I really wanted to thank you for was that it just prompted just talking to other people about that experience created so much unexpected. Well, not unexpected, but so much unprompted bonding. [00:31:23] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:31:24] Speaker B: Just to bring the topic forward and to everyone, agreed that it was a beautiful thing. We had the flowers sitting in our house. [00:31:32] Speaker C: Oh, they've lasted so long, too, haven't they? [00:31:35] Speaker B: No. I know. [00:31:36] Speaker C: I'm very impressed. [00:31:37] Speaker B: It was. It was quite lovely. And we had a little piece of jewelry on there and the cards as well, and people got to ask about it. And. Yeah, I wanted to thank you for bringing that at least into my life. And I could. I'll be very willing to bet the house. Into other people's lives. Life. [00:31:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:31:54] Speaker B: Because as we discussed, one of the craziest words that follow around this topic is stigma. [00:32:00] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:32:01] Speaker B: And as far as I've learned since this, there's nary a person on this planet that is not at least affected by It. And yet we still have this word stigma. [00:32:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:32:12] Speaker B: And so this work is so important. [00:32:14] Speaker A: What. [00:32:14] Speaker B: What prompted the flowers in particular, do you think? [00:32:17] Speaker C: So it came about, to be perfectly honest, like what I said to you on the phone. I was unsure if I was even going to do anything big for Maddie's second anniversary. In my head, it was, the first one's a big event. Everyone's still thinking about it. The second one, people die off. Like they drop off, you know, and interest isn't there. Obviously I was always going to do something myself. But anyway, a couple of people had reached out to me and said, what are we doing for Maddie? Which was incredibly humbling. And it's just beautiful to think that people still want to do something for Maddie. Yeah, absolutely. Maddie followed a lot of different things on TikTok, but she followed a lot of these random acts of kindness. And because I have access to her tick tock, I don't actually have tick tock myself, but I now use her account so to keep an eye on what she does follow. And because we lost Maddie in, you know, Suicide awareness month being September, I was like, we need to do something positive, positive. So if we're going to do something, because the year prior, what we did was quite symbolic in terms of releasing the bottle and we all just put flowers into the ocean. But at the end of the day, that has no lasting impact. That was great for us at the time it was more somber, but I was like, we're going to do something. Let's do something that can potentially change the course for somebody, or at least make somebody smile for the day. Even if you do nothing else, give someone a small flower and make them smile for the day. And I think that Maddie would enjoy that, you know, and that she would love that that's being done in her honor. So it was kind of stolen a little bit by tick tock, seeing different people do things. So I thought what we'll do is we'll hand out an individual flower. I ordered cards from Sheen, which had a picture of Maddie on the front with obviously the mental health numbers on the back, and then a positive affirmation card with a little butterfly, and some of them had an owl. And the idea was to bring her friends together and go out, find random people and just have a conversation, share Maddie's story, but have a conversation about mental health in general. Allowing people to have a, you know, to be able to share their story. [00:34:17] Speaker A: That's such a powerful thing to do because you never know who you're going to have the conversation with, absolutely. [00:34:23] Speaker C: And I was quite concerned. I went, this could either go really pear shaped or it'll go really well. Concerned in terms of would people be responsive and happy to accept a flower or would they run thinking that we were trying to sell it to them? And also would her friends and family actually get on board with the idea of doing it? Because it's quite nerve wracking and obviously, you know, Maddie would have just turned 20. Her friends are the same age. So going out there and actually having an open conversation about what suicide loss looks like for them and sharing Maddie's story puts them in a really vulnerable position and not everyone's gonna want to do that. You know, it takes a lot of guts to actually approach a person on the street and have a conversation with zero idea of where it's going to go. Particularly at a young age when you're dealing with your own issues as well. But everyone pretty much got on board and rolled with it, including my son. My son was hilarious. He's five and he, he keeps asking when we're going to go and give flowers to people again. And people sharing their stories with him. Like he gave one flower to a young lady and she's like, I'm actually here for my mental health today. And she was telling us about the story because, you know, this little five year old gifted her her a flower. But not only the act of giving and allowing a complete stranger to open up to you because. Sorry. And that's actually where part of the idea came from. Sorry. Completely forgot that I found comfort in talking to strangers. So that's why I was like, people tend to sometimes open up talking to [00:35:47] Speaker A: a stranger, sometimes easier talking to Australia, you don't have that history with them and you can just be honest. [00:35:53] Speaker C: Yeah, well, in the early days when I lost my daddy, I was going to do her wash and dresses, which, which is the final act of love that you can do for your child. I had to, I went and put everything in her casket for her before her cremation and I had to get butterflies for her celebration of life. So it was a chaotic day, but I had to wait for these butterflies at the post office in Hay Street. And anyway, I went down the road just to Langley park and this homeless man approached me and he said, well, how's your day going? And I just went, well, I've just, you know, I offloaded about, you know, what it's like, like to see your child once they've passed away and they're no longer physically in their Body and everything. And he was like, I think this is the first time I've had a conversation with someone where they're having a worse day than me. And we just connected because I had two hours to wait for butterflies. And it was amazing because I knew in that point I'd never see him again. So I told him everything. And that was very, I don't know, like it was off. Well, I offloaded onto him. That's exactly what it was. I don't know how he felt after that conversation, but I did give him money and my food that I had with me and my cigarettes that I had left over. So he did get that. I was like, here, just have it all. Thank you so much. [00:36:55] Speaker B: He probably started training as a therapist. [00:36:57] Speaker C: I was, yeah, he was just. He was probably like, why did I ask her how good he is? But that conversation with a random person, because I think there is also safety that you can be honest with a random person because you're not going to see them again. So there is something in that. Whereas like what we were talking about previously with connecting with some someone and sitting with them in silence, there is also when you meet some random, you can just tell them because you know you're gonna walk away and not have to worry about that conversation that you've had. So you're more likely to sometimes be open is what I've found. So there was that process thought when we did the flowers that you know, what people might actually offload onto us and being prepared to have that if that happened when we talk about active listening because people sometimes, like I offloaded people, people will sometimes offload on. [00:37:42] Speaker A: That's the right moment in the time, isn't it? [00:37:44] Speaker C: But it felt, it felt good for me when I did that. And so I think for people to have a space where they can go, blah, I'm having a really bad day and this is what's happened. And then go, all right, that's off my shoulders now. So it gives people that opportunity as well. [00:37:57] Speaker B: I would also argue maybe that it's a. It's a medicinal act because amongst my self learning, I've learned that it is one of the number one killers of young people. [00:38:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:38:10] Speaker B: And one of the number one, I guess, obstacles to fixing things or to recovery is the inability to talk about it or the stigmatization of talking about it. So you are actively engaging in one of the most dire things that faces a lot of our culture in I would argue, one of the most perfect ways, which is to bring it forward, to provide Examples and to give people opportunities. [00:38:39] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:38:40] Speaker B: Have you had any particularly good stories of feedback? [00:38:42] Speaker C: I actually screenshot of them because I. I asked. I asked for some feedback because I was with my son. So my story of gifting flowers, he very much. And it's really important. Like, he's five and he wants to be involved. And so when it comes to me doing things for Maddie, I follow him. So he told the story. And of course, the story got. You know, at one point he was saying, my daughter passed away. The next one, it was my. You know. So I. I elaborated on the story with him, but it was very much more about Miles's moment, trying to give to people. So mine was a little bit different. And also I had to man the flowers. So I wasn't out giving out too many flowers. But we had. Like, I had. This is one of Maddie's friends. [00:39:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:26] Speaker C: And she said, kin Kyla. T and I handed out a flower and told some ladies about Maddie. One of the ladies had her father pass away a couple of years ago to suicide. And this helped. And she said that this helped her in a way that she didn't know she needed. She said it was a sign that people needed to have, especially nowadays. She appreciated the talk and the gifting. And we let her know that there are numbers on the back just in case she was starting to feel that way. She thanked us and was generally grateful. It was an amazing experience for us because you never know who was having a bad day or not. Even though it was a small gesture, it might have made her day and made a memory for them to share. So that was one of her best friends that wrote that beautiful about doing it, what we had. Where is it? Oh, God. It's hard to read it because of this. [00:40:09] Speaker B: Okay. [00:40:11] Speaker C: We gave a flower to a lady whose daughter is a survivor. She said that how grateful she was that her daughter was doing better and that it's amazing that we are out here gifting people flowers in Maddie's honor and to raise awareness for Bethan and I, which is who you actually spoke to. It forced us to step outside of our comfort zones, but to see the smile it brought to others and the conversations, the simple gestures of a flower start was amazing and an honor to be a part of. Yeah. So my mom said that I had a man on a run who stopped to listen to Maddie's story. On his way back, he came over to give me the biggest, most sweaty hug. I had people cry and open up about their experiences with suicide. [00:40:50] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [00:40:51] Speaker C: I met a spiritual Medium who told me that Maddie was with us all the time. Funniest reaction was a woman who ran away because she thought I was trying to sell her something. [00:40:59] Speaker B: And then you can't win a more can. [00:41:01] Speaker C: No, that's exactly right. [00:41:03] Speaker A: And then, yeah, I should have chased after. [00:41:07] Speaker C: And then I had so my foster daughter. I suck when it comes to talking to new people. But awareness to mental health and suicide is extremely important. And Maddie was such an important person to me. So I pushed my anxiety aside to make sure her story was told. From the people I gifted flowers to, the most common reaction was that it made their day. They were so appreciative to be gifted a flower and they took the time to actively listen to Maddie's story. I hope the flowers made them feel special and made them. And made to feel like they matter. It was a great experience and also thankful to be a part of it. So I think that was another huge part of doing what we did was when with suicide loss, everyone, no matter who you are, if you're connected to someone who has died by suicide, there is an element of guilt and regrets and what ifs. So giving people something that they can actively do, I think helps with their healing as well. And particularly for younger people, like I'm. When Maddie passed away, my first priority, which probably sounds really stupid, was her friend group. [00:42:06] Speaker A: That sounds. [00:42:07] Speaker C: It was they need to be okay. Yeah. Like her celebration of life was not hosted. We didn't have a funeral. We just did a celebration life. I felt Maddie did not, you know, funerals are depressing to me. I was like, we're not doing that. But it was done based on when it was the most suitable time for the students to be supported at school. I wrote a massive long speech and there was a huge component in that speech about them uniting together and them not carrying that load of what had occurred. So their young minds, you know, with their own issues that they've got going on as well. So I think having something that they can proactively do and feel like they're positively doing something about that loss, that won't combat that guilt because. Because that guilt was never theirs to carry in the first place. But no matter who you are, you do carry. They all do. But to have something that can, you know, counteract it and do something positive, I think is really important to them. [00:43:02] Speaker A: Has this school kind of supported you guys and. And their own, like students, you know, has there been quite a lot of. [00:43:11] Speaker C: They were really, really good. The next day I. The support services on the council were in at the school straight away. I was very close with one of the EAs who worked there. I called her the day that Maddie passed away. So she got the word out to the school straight away. I was surprised at how quick the word did travel because not only obviously did Maddie's school know about it, but her previous school knew about it pretty quickly as well. And then another school knew about it where we had other connections because I hadn't even thought about the student at this other school and getting hold of them, because when it happens, you're like, who do I need to call first? And I had thought about the students at her previous school. So I had called a few of them directly because I was like, you are going to hear it through the gr. This is what's happened. I didn't want them to hear it through the school. I wanted them to hear it from me. But, you know, the school were really good. So, yeah, they had the support center there straight away. There's a memorial park and a rose at the school for Maddie. When they came to graduation, all the students wore pink butterflies on their graduation shirts. So all their graduation jackets, whatever you call those things, I'm not sure what they're called jackets. [00:44:26] Speaker A: One of the things that's happened probably in the last few years or so is that when there's a suicide in the coroner's office, they then notify. I think it's anger care y. [00:44:36] Speaker C: Yes. [00:44:37] Speaker A: They reach out to you, and then they reach out to the school. And I. I think that was something that is so helpful because before that happened and that was part of the Rockingham Lights against depression, there used to be a interagency meeting. And they. That. I think that Rockingham is the first one that's actually done that. [00:44:55] Speaker C: Okay. [00:44:57] Speaker A: Prior to that, it would just be hearsay and. And, you know, gospel rumor. And the agencies weren't interconnected. And I think now it's such a smooth transition that the coroner then noted, or the police notify Anglicare and then Anglicare obviously notify whoever is. [00:45:15] Speaker C: Yeah, that's what's meant to happen. It's interesting because I was having this conversation with standby support recently due to another loss. But. And I asked the question because I said to her, I said, how did you actually. Like, how did you get involved? Because I obviously, I didn't call standby support. And she said, it's very much case by case, and if the detectives and police involved understand the process well, they will engage standby support. And she said, other times it may be the coroner's office. But then other times it's left out altogether and people have forgotten and then they're having to find those services themselves. So there is a little bit of a. A gap in those services. But those services are amazing. [00:45:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:53] Speaker C: And one of the things that I was attending monthly suicide support group, which I don't attend now just because of I have a child in care now, and it's just too hard. But one of the repeat messages that, you know, people that are bereaved by suicide all say is the only benefit of losing someone to suicide is the supports that they throw at you. Because if you lose a family member to cancer, a car accident, there's no network around you. The work that's involved with people who lose someone as a result of suicide is significant. Like, I had three different support networks and groups of, you know, counselors and everything at me, you know, and not pressuring me, but, you know, ensuring that I was okay and supported. And also, not just me, but who else needs that support? [00:46:41] Speaker A: That lost Maddie, like, you know, I love that. That is. I mean, I'm not. Good to hear that there's still a few gaps there. But I love the fact that that is a smooth transition. That they reach out to you and then they contact. [00:46:53] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:46:53] Speaker A: You know, anyone in your networks that might need that. [00:46:55] Speaker C: Exactly. It's amazing. And the fact that it's a free service because not everyone has the money for counseling, but it is. It's quite intense. And they're relentless in a good way. Like, I don't mean that in a bad way, but they're relentless in a good way that you. I suppose, because the statistics of people dying by suicide after they've lost someone from suicide, you're 60, 63. Higher risk of dying by suicide yourself once you've had a significant loss. [00:47:21] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:47:22] Speaker C: That's. [00:47:22] Speaker B: That's important to say that again. [00:47:24] Speaker C: 63% higher chance of dying by suicide if you've had a significant loss suicide. [00:47:30] Speaker A: And that's why you're high risk. That's why there's a lot of post prevention in schools. And I know there was a school in Rockingham a few years ago. I think they had about two or three suicides within a few weeks. And so the post prevention, you know, went into the school and they did a lot of, you know, support kind of thing. [00:47:48] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:47:48] Speaker A: And that needs to happen because there is a high. [00:47:50] Speaker C: Absolutely needs to happen. [00:47:51] Speaker A: There is a high risk. [00:47:52] Speaker C: 100. Yeah, absolutely. You are very. Yeah. [00:47:55] Speaker B: I feel like that's even more evidence of how ubiquitous this is as a topic that it really can. It really does reach anybody. [00:48:05] Speaker C: It does. And. And you don't realize the ripple effect of suicide until it occurs. Like, I didn't realize how big Maddie Circles was until she passed away. In reality, I had no idea. The ripple effect is huge. And the impact it has had on people who you wouldn't like, for example, like her best friend from kindergarten. And the impact it's had. They hadn't spoken in years, but the ripple. And you think of all the people you've crossed paths with, particularly as you get older. Yeah, that. That affects, you know, it's huge. And yeah. But yeah, if you. Significant loss, if you're close to someone. Yeah, you're. You're high risk. So. And I think that's why the postvention supports are so not, as I said, they're not. Not pushy, but very good at trying to support vigilance. [00:48:53] Speaker B: Maybe. [00:48:53] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. No, they are like, you know, you get the calls and you're like, oh, if I just only had this, like, if Maddie had this support when she was still here, maybe it wouldn't have happened. But maybe. [00:49:02] Speaker B: But yeah, maybe that's sort of the point is that one thing I'm sort of feeling is that what spurs into action and besides the, the negative ripple effects, the positive ripple effect seems to greatly reflect what maybe should have always been there or maybe what's culturally missing or not quite as present as it needs to be. Especially when you see the statistics of how many people. It seems to be a. An ever growing need for the kind of connection that is spurred on by a loss such as this. [00:49:36] Speaker A: Yeah. I guess the problem with prevention though, is that you have to identify that need. Like it's. It's a lot easier to identify a suicide because it's there, you know, but there are so many people like Maddie who are struggling inside who don't share. And so. [00:49:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:49:54] Speaker A: That there's no kind of process where [00:49:56] Speaker C: people can go, oh, we were talking about previously about. It's very individualized and you know, even the supports what works for someone won't work for someone else. So trying to get the correct support for that person can also be incredibly challenging. It's. Yeah, it's very complicated. [00:50:15] Speaker B: Yeah. We were talking about how advice can be a very scary word almost because it's so individual and so personal. That said, though, I mean, maybe to someone who is concerned they might be in. Might be facing what you faced or might be concerned about their child. Is there anything that you Would like to maybe not advise to them, but maybe like to say to them or maybe a suggestion of some sort. [00:50:45] Speaker C: I think it's really, really important. And this is something that I've actually experienced since with doing some training actually saying the words, you know, are you thinking about suicide? Are, are you thinking about killing yourself? A lot of people will say, yeah, are you thinking about hurting yourself? Hurting yourself is very different to taking your life. Self harm obviously is significant but a lot of people are self harming in terms of cutting in all different ways that are not actually considering suicide. So actually giving it a label. And a lot of people, and obviously previously, you know, there was concern, concerned that if you say it, that's going to put the idea into their head. It's not going to put the idea, they're already there. So if you know, you are, have the confidence to go, look, are you thinking about suicide? It gives them an opportunity like you've then named it so they can go yes. [00:51:36] Speaker A: And often people are relieved when you actually broach a subject because then they can talk about it in a non judgmental way. [00:51:42] Speaker C: Yep. [00:51:43] Speaker A: And also a lot of people don't want to die. A lot of people aren't like feeling suicidal, but they just don't see how they can, how they can get better in what they're going through, you know, and, and so when you actually ask that question and if they say yes, then you obviously have to get more information and get a plan, work out what their plan is. [00:52:02] Speaker C: Yep. [00:52:03] Speaker A: When we actually vocalize that because often we have that internal voice, you know, and we can sometimes think things which we don't actually believe in and we just can let it slide. But when you actually vocalize and speak it out and say, you know, this is my plan, sometimes it shocks people and going, actually I don't want to die. Yeah, but I want to find an alternative. I, I don't want the present situation to carry on. I want to get better. I want to feel hope. What does, how does that look like? [00:52:33] Speaker C: Yeah. And it brings it to the table because like you said, it's no longer internal, it's out there. You've said yes, you're thinking about suicide. So what are we going to do about that? And I think actually as the person who's asking the questions, if they say yes, at least you don't have that also that internal guessing going on as to what are they likely to do. They'll either go no or they're going to say yes. If they go yes, you go all Right. Well, this is what we're going to do to keep you safe and you come up with a plan for them. [00:52:59] Speaker B: So that was going to be my next question is again, it's sort of a individualized no advice framework work. But from what you've learned, what might be because someone may get the bravery to ask that question and they might find that they're either unprepared or didn't find the. The courage to face, you know, a yes response. [00:53:19] Speaker C: Yep. [00:53:20] Speaker B: What is something that you may suggest or say about that to others about that moment? That moment where they've spoken to the person and they've gotten an answer that they hoped they wouldn't. [00:53:31] Speaker C: Yeah. So in that moment, if you're not prepared or you don't know what to say, tell the person that you don't know. You don't have the answers. I think that's really important. Don't give them false hope that you're going to be able to save them. [00:53:43] Speaker B: So it shouldn't discourage you from asking. [00:53:45] Speaker C: No, no, it shouldn't discourage you. But what, you know, I think what you need to do in that moment is that's when you sit and you listen to them and you listen in terms of you're not talking over them. There's no judgment, there's no bias about the situation. You just need to listen to them in that moment. But you need to tell them that you don't actually know what to do with that information, but that you're going to find somebody who does know what to do, that information. And I think it's really important that you tell them that you are going to find somebody. [00:54:09] Speaker B: So it's almost like talk about it can bridge people. [00:54:12] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:54:13] Speaker B: There's the person who may be suffering ideation and there's the person who is inquired about it and then they might need to talk about it too. [00:54:21] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:54:21] Speaker B: And it sort of carries through. [00:54:23] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Because you're not going to have all the answers. I mean, as like I've had people come to me asking for advice and I'm like, I think people assume because I've been through it and unfortunately, as I say, I lost the battle, that somehow I have the answers. I don't. But you need to find somebody who does and connect the dots, basically. I think so in terms of. With students like for example, you know, one of Maddie's friends. Maddie had told her that she had planned to die. But before Miles, which is my son, was old enough to remember her, she didn't tell anybody this. She didn't believe Maddie. And I said, one of the things that I think can be a learning taken away from Maddie's situation or any. Well, possibly more than Maddie's situation is if somebody says something, whether you believe them or not, tell somebody. Especially if you take it off your shoulders, because then that's not a guilt you're carrying. If they actually do sit. Succeed and they are no longer with us, tell somebody. So if you're having a conversation with someone and they are considering suicide, be honest with them. If you don't have the answers, if you don't know what to do, but tell them that you are going to tell somebody. [00:55:35] Speaker B: In your opinion, what does listening, proper listening, look like? [00:55:40] Speaker C: I think it looks like silence from the person. Yeah. I think we're very. As a society, I do believe that we're trained very well to ask people, are you okay? But we're not trained with. What do they do if they say no? [00:55:55] Speaker A: I think that's where. I mean, I. I run mental health first aid training and there's also assist and gatekeeper. [00:56:01] Speaker C: I've done all of them. They've done all of them. [00:56:03] Speaker A: They are really cool. And I've been doing that for 11 years. Y and I would love to see are you okay? They pair with mental health first aid or assist or gatekeeper, because I. Okay. Asks a question. But the problem is unless you know what to say, if they say yes, then it's like, I don't know what to say next, you know, and, and that's where assist, gatekeeper, mental health first aid can help that person to, to overcome that anxiety and know what to say. [00:56:35] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:56:36] Speaker A: Because the worst thing people can say is, is ask that question. They say yes, and they're like, oh, [00:56:43] Speaker C: I hope it's all right tomorrow. [00:56:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, let's move on. You know, people get embarrassed and they don't. They're afraid to. To move the conversation to the next level. So then they change the subject and that's. That leaves that person then. Well, I've just opened up. I've just shared something that I probably never shared with anyone else and they've just, you know, dismissed me. [00:57:07] Speaker B: Me. [00:57:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:08] Speaker A: So it's, it's really. I mean, I love Are you okay? Day but I would just love to see more training around. What if the answer is yes? [00:57:16] Speaker C: And I agree with you. And this is what I was saying before. Are you okay days great at getting out a message? It absolutely is. But if someone does say no, I think it very much needs to pair with like, I Was saying a presentation or. Yeah. Assist suicide prevention training. That needs to form a part of the day. It's not just a bar, a cupcake. There needs to be a safe space for after that event for someone to actually come and for the people that are hosting the event to actually have some basic mental health first aid training for it to be beneficial because otherwise the message is there. But as I said, like, yeah, I think where we fall short as the society is actually listening. [00:57:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:50] Speaker C: And being comfortable in the silence. This is what we were talking about, the silence. So if you sit with someone in silence very often, they will eventually open up to you. So you need to be okay with sitting in silence. [00:58:00] Speaker A: And that can be quite. Like. Some people really find that hard. Yeah, it can be quite. [00:58:06] Speaker C: That's exactly right. That's like. You need to be comfortable with actually doing that because at times that's what someone just needs is their presence and eventually they may open up. So. But we need to listen without judgment and we need to not like, shut them down with, it's going to be all right. You know, and like what I was saying before to just. James, you know, an additional element to it is reminding them, oh, don't forget, we wouldn't want to do that to your family. You know, adding that extra burden onto them when they're already struggling, it's just not practical. It doesn't help. [00:58:38] Speaker A: And I know some people who, you know, say someone has kids and they're like, oh, let's use the kids to, to stop them suiciding. And I think that's such a bad idea because the person might, buying, might feel the kids are better off without me or I'm a bad parent or something. And if they're like, oh, you know, you should be thinking about your kids, your kids is enough to keep you alive. I just, I think there's nothing more, nothing worse. [00:59:03] Speaker C: Well, you're already adding a burden onto an already significantly ill mind is what you're doing. I think. I don't think you need to burden them by reminding them of what they've got to live for and going, you know, you. And reminding them of how heavy it's going to be if they do go through with it. What you're doing is you're just, just making them feel worse about the situation that they're in. So it needs to very much. If you're having a conversation with someone, it needs to be about them. [00:59:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:59:27] Speaker C: And what they're feeling in that time, not about, you know, the, Their dog who might find Them two weeks later and how's that dog gonna feel? Or, you know, as you know, I [00:59:38] Speaker B: just want to add to. Are you okay? And what do you need? Need? [00:59:42] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:59:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:59:44] Speaker B: What would you need? Or just some. And there's. It feels. That just feels like it's begging for [00:59:48] Speaker A: that There is something you need to do. I mean, it's a great initiative. You can't. No, it's a great initiative. But I mean, the other thing that really gets me is are you okay? Day shouldn't just be one day in the year. It should be every. Every day. [00:59:59] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:59:59] Speaker A: We should be asking, are you okay? You know, and not. And it becomes in. And particularly on social media, it. It can become almost like a joke, you know, because it's a viral hashtag. And it was. Are you okay though? I used to. I did a course with a company and they were telling me that, oh, no, are you okay day? You walk into the big organization, it's a national company, and they said, they walk into the foyer on I okay day. And there's the table with a yellow tablecloth and there's big signs with all yellow. With big smiley face balloons everywhere. All yellow balloons, big smiley faces. And they're greeted with are you okay? You know, it's. Are you okay? There are UK and they were saying that when. If they're depressed when they wake up on are you okay Day, they don't go in. [01:00:45] Speaker C: And I said, because actually for this are you okay Day, I actually wrote a big. It was actually on Roger Cook's Facebook, unfortunately. But I was quite passionate about and saying that the p. I said, you need to be checking in with the one ones that appear strong on the outsider said. And the people that are actually struggling, I personally feel they're not going to participate in are you okay Day? They're just not. They're going to be the ones at the back or they're going to be the ones volunteering to man the phones, check in on those people. [01:01:14] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:01:15] Speaker C: Because they're the ones that are possibly struggling. [01:01:18] Speaker A: Absolutely. And. And it's, you know, when they mentioned that and I never thought about it before, you know, because I thought, oh, okay Day. It's a great thing. Yellow smelly faces. What. How could you be triggered by that? But that's the reality is that when people are struggling and they don't want that pressure to say no, actually, I'm not. [01:01:36] Speaker C: Yep. [01:01:37] Speaker A: Because they feel like they're going to let everyone down or they're going to make everyone else feel miserable. And so they just, you know, don't go in. And I think that's such a wasted opportunity. [01:01:47] Speaker C: Yeah. I will not go in for. Are you okay? Day now. [01:01:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I understand that. [01:01:53] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:01:54] Speaker B: It almost feel like that. One thing that I have felt, and this is something I might want to ask you about, is sometimes when I feel a particularly a negative emotion, it's almost like by speaking it, I've made it true. Where something in my head is like, no, I don't want this to be true. I don't want this to be true. What might you say to someone like me who's feeling something like that, where they. They maybe even denying their own struggles internally? [01:02:26] Speaker C: Well, that's a really good question [01:02:31] Speaker B: because it's so individual, right? [01:02:33] Speaker C: It is individual. And every life obviously has value, but you don't want to sit with that person and go, what are your strengths and what are your cons? Because they're already in a negative mindset. [01:02:44] Speaker B: Well, maybe I could reword it. [01:02:45] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:02:46] Speaker B: In the education that you've had in the last couple of years, what is some. What are some general things that you've learned about? Maybe inquiring of people that you may be concerned, feel are not feeling themselves or are struggling inside. [01:03:03] Speaker C: Yeah. So yet again, that's an individual process. But if you go through like for instance, assist suicide intervention process prevention training, they. They set you up a platform and they. They train you on asking the right questions. And I think yet again, it comes down to honesty if you don't have the answers. But you can come up with a plan for somebody if they don't feel that they can keep themselves safe. You can come up with a plan for that person in that moment to try to keep them safe. There's nothing that's going to be 100 guaranteed that's going to keep them safe. But I think what's really important is that it only works for that 24 hours. It's an ongoing battle with people. So I guess you link them in with what is possibly the easiest option, which is going to your GP and starting the process and linking them in with the support lines like Lifeline. Obviously you can get through to them. [01:03:49] Speaker B: And you mentioned by text as well, which is more accessible than, say, vocalizing. [01:03:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:03:55] Speaker B: And I might even be a little less real than saying it out loud if you can just text it. [01:03:59] Speaker C: And I think, particularly if you've never done it before, texting is a lot easier because saying those words, whilst some people will. And what we were talking about, giving it a name and giving It. A voice is often like, it's a good thing, you know, acknowledging that you're feeling that way. But particularly for adolescents, you know, and young adults, unfortunately, as a society, we very much live on our phones. [01:04:21] Speaker B: Yes, ma'. [01:04:21] Speaker C: Am. We have very much lost the ability to communicate the way we used to be able to. I think texting and the mental health service providers, like, they are now getting on board with the social media and the texting side of things, and then the other platforms that they're now doing is better because it's reaching a wider audience who are possibly more likely to engage with the services than actually picking up a phone, particularly when there is funding issues and the phones don't necessarily answer straight away because that's a problem. [01:04:47] Speaker B: Interestingly, even though you paused, I did sort of hear a potential answer. Maybe if you're concerned about someone is because it's something I didn't think of. Seek training. [01:05:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:05:01] Speaker B: Seek advice yourself, maybe, and see if you can identify it better or give yourself some tools to maybe help others. [01:05:09] Speaker C: Yeah. I think also now when you talk about being tech savvy, and I'm just thinking of this right now, it's literally just come to me. But the Chat GPTs and everything, you could probably plug something into Chat GPT in that moment and go, what do I tell this, this person? How do I support them? [01:05:25] Speaker B: It's a funny thing, isn't it? [01:05:27] Speaker C: You might actually be able to get something out of that. I know Chat GP like, I personally don't like ii, but. And I know it's been used in bad ways, but in situations like that, if you're really unsure, I'm sure you could actually utilize one of those services and they might help guide you through helping that person in that moment. I actually might try that. I might test that. [01:05:46] Speaker B: But I do admit I use Chat Geppetto in, you know, getting organized. Yeah. [01:05:54] Speaker C: Scares me. AI scares me. But I have used Chat GPT. [01:05:58] Speaker A: I find it a good brainstormer kind of thing as well. It's like, you know, you say, this is what I'm trying to do and it'll come back with options. Yeah, it's a good way. [01:06:05] Speaker C: It's a handy tool. And I think everyone has a phone these days that might actually be beneficial in a situation like that. I could be wrong and I'm going to test that when I go home. But I do think, particularly with younger people, people who are so tech savvy, throwing in your phone and going, what? What do I need to do for this person? Right now might help you guide that person in the direction. [01:06:25] Speaker A: I think potentially there were some negatives when it first came out because there was one person who was talking about suicide and it actually encouraged them. Yes, but I think they've tightened that up. [01:06:35] Speaker C: But yes, that's what they for. So if you're looking for how do I support someone, obviously you'll get it. Yeah. But yeah, I'm, yeah, I'm aware of that situation. Situation. But I do think, I don't know, as I said I could be wrong. I just literally thought of that and I'm going, wait a minute. That's actually probably a good tool in the moment. [01:06:49] Speaker B: Well that was one of the hopes that I had had when I first heard about language models is a couple of years ago one of my sort of fantasies that I had. And it was more thinking about my mental health because it was way worse back then. My own mental health as I thought. You know there's so many people, they don't need a 24 hour psychologist or support worker but most people tend to need it three or four times a day for 10 seconds. Yep, they could just have it for 10 seconds. And I thought oh, if you could just, just capture that. Just hey, chat, I'm feeling poorly. Here's some information I've devised derived from the entire world. Maybe give that a go. And it just provides those little moment to moments. [01:07:28] Speaker C: Very valid point you have actually too because what I found personally is during the day I'm actually okay. I have children to look after, I have work. And at night time that's when I actually go to Cactus and there's no psychologist services around at that time. You can't go to my 10pm appointment at Rockingham Counseling. [01:07:49] Speaker A: It's not available that night time because particularly when people are isolated but they're tired so they're kind of less resistant to some of the, the negative like self talk. So I think nighttime early morning is, is the. And that's why lifeline being 247 is a really, really good thing. But I think a lot of, I don't know if all, not obviously not all of them but I think a lot of suicides happen like evening early morning. [01:08:15] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:08:16] Speaker A: Because like you said you can't. There's something about when the sun comes up in the morning that gives people hope I think. And when it's dark outside and the services aren't open, you can't you know, go to the shops even see people silence as well. Yeah, just you know, the privacy as [01:08:34] Speaker B: well, you know the World's asleep. It's just me and myself. [01:08:38] Speaker A: It's quite a difficult. And I guess it's that window, isn't it? And like, there's an app called beyond now, which you've heard of. Yeah. And that's by Beyond Blue. And I found that really, really helpful for someone who is having suicidal thoughts that they can design their own care plan. [01:08:56] Speaker C: Yeah, their own care plan. [01:08:57] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really. Yeah. [01:09:00] Speaker C: There's a few of them around now, too, which is really good. But, yeah, the be. Yeah. [01:09:03] Speaker B: I'm hearing a recurring word, planning, that seems to be something maybe to recognize, maybe even to listeners and things like that. If you. If you know someone or not to have a plan in place, since it's such a widespread thing, it almost feels like, you know, even here in Rockingham. But where I grow up in Bridgetown, they always have, you know, the lowest fire setting is be prepared. [01:09:27] Speaker C: Yep. [01:09:27] Speaker B: That's the lowest fire setting. That's when it's in the blue is be prepared. I almost feel like that's sort of a philosophy to take of if you've got a five minutes or whatever, make a plan just in case a family member or a loved one may be flirting with disaster. [01:09:42] Speaker C: I think practice the conversation with yourself as well. Yeah. Because I think delivering will, asking the right questions with some confidence helps as well. But I've only had to do that once since I've done the training and I've done a few different training. And did you. [01:09:59] Speaker A: Can I ask, did you do the training after. [01:10:01] Speaker C: Yes. [01:10:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:10:02] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:10:03] Speaker A: You hadn't done any of that training? [01:10:04] Speaker C: No, I've done nothing before. I didn't even know. [01:10:05] Speaker A: Do you think that having done the training and. And so you've done mental first aid assist and gatekeeper. Yeah. So with the knowledge that you have now, I know this is a hard kind of question to ask, but do you think that with the knowledge that you have now, if happened again, do you think you'd have done anything differently? [01:10:25] Speaker C: It's a really good question. And that's actually why I started the training in the first place. And I wasn't even too sure because I did assist early 2025. So within just a couple of months of losing Maddie, I wasn't even too sure how much of that information I would actually retain because when I was there over the two days, I was so fixated on going, would this have helped? Would this have helped? And applying it to my story, and a lot of it actually wouldn't, so. And we did talk about suicide in Our household, we had foster, you know, I'm a foster carer. We had children in care. It was an open conversation that we had. You know, I, in the early days when Maddie was engaged with mental health providers, suicide was, you know, the questions were asked and are you thinking about it? Mattie was like, I would never, I, I would never do that. And back in those days, that's what I said. I wouldn't have been surprised if she actually did. But that's where I learned about the signs, you know, like the little things that you miss, you know, that's when I started thinking about that conversation with the fridge and that conversation in the car, about the sad music and those small, little minuscule invites, as they call them. They call them invitations. That's what they actually call them as an invitation to a conversation. Conversation. And I go, and to be perfectly honest, I don't know if I had one of those myself. I rack my brain on it all the time. And I go, did I have an invite from Maddie in the weeks leading up to it, to that conversation? And I still don't think I did. I haven't been able to identify it, but had people undergone that training, including myself, beforehand, it may have opened up a dialogue for Matt Talk. So, yeah, it, there's potential, but as I said, I also am unsure if she intended to end her life or if she was just sending a sign out to people. [01:12:19] Speaker B: Do you think there's any training or program that would be appropriate to offer to teenagers since there's such a high risk group? [01:12:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:12:27] Speaker B: And maybe what do you think's the earliest age to introduce this topic, for example? It seems like Miles has handled it very well. Yeah, but also, it's not really a topic you want to drop on a five year old, if you can. [01:12:40] Speaker C: No, I mean, I didn't tell him for months. Months. I had no idea how to navigate it until I was engaged with a counselor and she said, you need to tell him that she died and she died by her own hand. I was like, I haven't even said that out. Like, I struggled to say that. [01:12:54] Speaker B: Right. [01:12:56] Speaker C: But he grasped the concept. He was like, yeah, and just went with it. Like, I think we put so many adult emotions into children that they just don't have and sales of babes. Like, yeah. He was just like, why? Even then he was like, can we just go and play with the ducks now? Like, it just was like. But later it opened up conversations with him where now he will ask very deep questions. But in terms of what age I Think high school age is the, is the time when you definitely need to be having some sort of mental health first training. Well, the more and more I read, the more and more devastating it appears to get. You see stories of not necessarily here in Australia because a lot of the groups I follow are worldwide. But they'll put up pictures and there's a lot of pictures coming through at the moment on these groups and children as young as 10. [01:13:41] Speaker B: So yeah, I was looking up statistics, I've seen that it's reached as young as three. [01:13:46] Speaker C: Yeah, well, there was a nine year old which was devastating. I know that there was, yeah, there was a nine year old here in WA as well, which was just heartbreaking. So it's happening earlier and earlier. [01:13:58] Speaker A: I think it's the way that you have that conversation there, isn't it? I would like to see. Because the problem with when you hit secondary school is the problems already there. [01:14:06] Speaker C: Yep. [01:14:07] Speaker A: The problems develop, tend to develop in the primary age. And so if there was more like resilience training and more mental health training, more abstract, I guess. You know, obviously you can't talk about suicide to a five year old but if you can give that resilience training to yes, primary and then maybe suicide from second. [01:14:26] Speaker C: What you're saying about resilience is huge. And I've spoken about this with a very close mate of mine all the time and because I question, because I look at Maddie's life and the one thing with Maddie that she didn't have, she did not have resilience. She was a natural born person, person who succeeded and any failure, the first failure she really experienced was failing her driver's license six times and which was devastating for her. But she had so little resilience when she failed. So when the situation that happened around her death happened, she did not have the resilience. And I do, I, I question that and I have openly questioned that. As I said with a very good mate of mine about. I think resilience is, is lacking in today's society of younger kids and building those skills with resilience. I don't think there's enough work done on. [01:15:14] Speaker A: I think one of the, I mean I remember when, when I was a kid, like a completely different generation failing, like if you had sports as an example, right. Just throwing that out there. If you, if you won, you got, you know, your prize. If you got second, you got third, you got a prize. Y, if you came last, you didn't get anything apart from being mocked by your peers, you know. But now that they're so sc. Scared of allowing kids to fail. [01:15:42] Speaker C: Yep. [01:15:43] Speaker A: And, and that, I think that's where the resilience isn't there. Like what any, any person that has ever achieved anything in life or invented anything has only done so because they failed probably a thousand times. [01:15:56] Speaker C: That's exactly right. [01:15:57] Speaker A: And they got back up and they tried again. [01:15:59] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:15:59] Speaker A: And it's that, that ability to go, okay, I failed here, but I'm going to learn from it. I'm going to stand up and I'm going to do it again. And that's, you know, that, that's resilience. But if 100, you know, if we're not. If we're not allowing people to fail, then we're setting them up for something. [01:16:19] Speaker C: And it's very difficult to navigate that as well. Like for instance, Maddie, she had these huge, massive expectations for what her life would look like after school. I mean, they were ridiculously high. And while it's great also to encourage dreams, they also have to be realistic dreams. So there is that balance of reality and supporting children to chase dreams. But accept that being part of the 99 of people is actually okay. Like, you don't have to be the 1% to be happy. You can be part of the 99 and still be happy. So chasing real. Because unfortunately they live in a society now that is so based on social media and they see these unrealistic lives. [01:17:02] Speaker B: Yes. [01:17:03] Speaker C: That now that's what they're all aiming to be. And it's also, it's the instant gratification that they have from that. So the working towards anything aspect is also dropped with the resilience because they're so exposed to seeing these amazing lives. And realistically, that is the 1% that achieve that. They are going to be part of the 99%. And being a part of the 99% is okay. [01:17:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:17:24] Speaker C: Like it is okay. That is not a failure. But I think in today's society, it is almost seen as a failure for these young individuals. [01:17:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:17:32] Speaker C: Because this is who they're looking to. And this is. And so much time is spent on social media that that's what they sort of almost see as normal. Because they don't spend as much time with their peers outside of school. They are watching these people on tick tock, YouTube, every other social media platform, living these phenomenal lives and going, well, why can't I have that? When reality hits that they're actually not going to have that. What do you do with that to support them? Because that's a huge comedown yeah, Massive come down. [01:18:04] Speaker B: It is. Oh, I relate. [01:18:05] Speaker C: But resilience is huge. I'm so glad you. Yeah, I question that so much. [01:18:10] Speaker B: I relate to that so deeply. Just because the way that I like to put it, which might be disingenuous to myself was, you know, I nearly hit 20 before I realized I had to come back to mum and go, mom, I, I'm not the gooey prince of the world. Why didn't you tell me? I didn't know. I thought I was the center of everything and suddenly realized I'm another floating piece adult. Which is an important lesson. But yeah, resilience takes a hit when you grow up. [01:18:36] Speaker C: Well, there's a song out at the moment called Daydream and you may have heard it and it's very relevant to what we're talking about. And it's talking about like I forget the lyrics but it says, you know, like when you, when you're a child, you know, you want to be an astronaut and everything and then it goes go to college, college with your plan B and it's like, don't ever quit your daydream. But that's very true. I mean obviously that's applying to children. You know, I want to be an astronaut. But I think because of social media today, those extreme amazing jobs and careers and everything are very visible to them throughout their life. It doesn't stop when they're in five and an imaginary play, it becomes real to them. And the I want to chase this too. And when they can't hit that daydream and going to college with your plan B almost seems like failure when it's not. Yeah, it's absolutely not. But. Yeah, but I think that just extends. Whereas though obviously maturity and mentally you're growing as a person, you're no longer that five year old going I'm an astronaut that you're going, why? You know, as a teenager going, well I should be, I should be this. Why am I not this? I'm a failure because I'm not this person that. [01:19:38] Speaker A: And I think more we do in resilience in that primary age. So it becomes a second nature and being able to almost like reward failure to, you know. Or not. No, sorry, not to a reward failure. So being allowing people to fail without feeling like they've won something. [01:19:58] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:19:58] Speaker A: So that they then go okay, well I fail but then I can get up and yeah. [01:20:04] Speaker C: And that is very much lacking. And I know that currently through the process like I, we are trying to find social skills and resilience based programs For a child in, like in care at the moment and trying to find those services that offer that. And when asking the school, do you do resilience and everything? Like, we do protective behaviors, which is very important. Protective behaviors is huge. But you also need to do a body of work about supporting resilience as well. [01:20:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:20:31] Speaker C: But it doesn't seem to exist. [01:20:32] Speaker B: It's like a small. It's almost a small difference between. I mean, you don't want to reward failure, but you want to reward accepting failure. [01:20:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:20:39] Speaker C: You need to acknowledge it. You know, it needs to exist in order to succeed. You have to have failure. [01:20:44] Speaker A: We. We had a motto when we first started the radio station that we are happy we're failing. Like, we started this random radio station during COVID None of us had any history with radio station or with technology. We were just flying blind. And our first audio technician was deaf. Yep. Well, that's really. [01:21:07] Speaker C: That's a good story on its own, right? Yeah. [01:21:10] Speaker A: And so she learned her own strategies to. To. And she was good. She was very good at picking up the audio issues. [01:21:19] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:21:20] Speaker A: But we always said, like, I would rather that you try and fail than get scared of failing and not try. Yeah. [01:21:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:21:28] Speaker A: And I think that's. We've made so many mistakes over the years and we learn from them and. And that's how you grow. [01:21:35] Speaker C: That's where. Yeah. Growth. [01:21:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:21:37] Speaker C: Absolutely. Yeah. You cannot. Yeah, yeah. It's huge. [01:21:41] Speaker A: Awesome. Before we finish off the interview. [01:21:44] Speaker C: Yeah. I was just looking at the time. I was trying to see what it is. [01:21:47] Speaker A: I think that's. [01:21:48] Speaker B: We've done very well. [01:21:49] Speaker A: Long, long time. [01:21:50] Speaker C: Yeah. I'm gonna get my son from school. That's was like. [01:21:53] Speaker A: I didn't realize it was that long, but it's been really wonderful talking to you and we really appreciate your honesty and having that conversation. It's such an important conversation to have. What does the. This is a really dumb question, but what's the future look like? Are you got any involved in any projects at the moment or. [01:22:09] Speaker C: I think, like, I've just entered into my second year. I think very much my heart is going to go towards trying to. I've been trying to understand where I fit into contributing to sending out positive messages. You know, like, mentally I went through. I could start a charity. And I go, you know what? There's that many charities already out there. And what it just does is distribute the funds instead of with. So it doesn't necessarily make as much of an impact by starting another charity, but it's like where Am I going to go with my message? And I think that's what I'm starting to think about now, because it's. The first year is very much about being in shock the second year, you know, like, we've closed off the process with the Coroner's office. I'm just about to start the process now with WA Health in terms of. With their recommendations and their actions to ensure that they've been implemented or try to ensure they've been implemented. Obviously, recently in the news, we've seen that that is quite a failure on its own. But what. My. What direction I want to go with it, and that's where I'm a little bit lost because I know in this space. Space, I think I could possibly do some good. But, yeah, I don't know what that journey looks like yet for me. [01:23:23] Speaker A: Just kind of play it by. [01:23:24] Speaker C: Yeah, I know I definitely want to do something, you know, like, there's great organizations like Roses in the Ocean. I've recently signed up as a volunteer for Lifeline. [01:23:32] Speaker A: I heard Rose in the Ocean have come out of WA now, though. [01:23:35] Speaker C: Yeah, I heard that too. [01:23:36] Speaker A: Yes. [01:23:37] Speaker C: Which is very disappointing. But, yeah, I only recently actually found that out, like, two days ago, too, because I went onto their website, like, looking for something. [01:23:44] Speaker A: Yeah, we've had issues with them here and I belong to the agency group that meets and. And we. Yeah, and they're involved. Yeah. And. Yeah. Just disappointed that they're not here anymore. [01:23:54] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. No, I was quite shocked when I found that out, so. But, yeah, like, I don't know. I do think that there needs to be more com. And this is one thing that I was told I could possibly do really well in terms of going to the schools and talk. Talk. I think there needs to be more of that. But I guess where I come from on that point of view, there are so many people in schools talking and bullying is. I'm very fortunate. Maddie was never bullied. There was never any evidence that Maddie was bullied. And I'm grateful for that because I think that adds an extra element onto it. [01:24:25] Speaker B: Yes. [01:24:26] Speaker C: But I do think that I. It would be incredibly triggering, but very powerful even going into the schools. And even if you had the images of what school suicide looks like after. Yeah, something like. I remember back in. When I was in high school and, you know, obviously we had all different talks come through the schools, but the only one I ever remember is the one about driving safe with the accident. That stayed with me for life. You know, I still remember that because you actually see what happens there. And I do think that maybe we do need to hit the schools harder with what is potentially more triggering. But it's a power that's a more powerful message. But I don't know what the future looks like for me in terms of what I will do. I want to do something because, as I said, that's the only way I keep Maddie's memory alive is by doing things in her honor. And if you can just change one person's life, well, then it's worthwhile. Yeah. [01:25:17] Speaker A: Is there any, like, Facebook pages or, like, any contact details that you're happy to give out? [01:25:24] Speaker C: If anyone is, you can share my private. Mine's a Smile Jane smile space, Jane. That's my private Facebook. It's not under my name. A colleague used to say to me all the time and I'll stress Smile James. Yeah, I mean, I'm reachable on there. I'm happy for that to be shared also via my email as well. I'm happy to give you those details. [01:25:45] Speaker A: But do you want to just share your email out now? We can we put it in the description as well? [01:25:49] Speaker C: So it's just Leah L E A H dot Suffolk S u dash F for Fred O L K gmail dot com. So, yeah, but, you know, I'm more than happy to be contacted. But yeah, awesome. I think there needs to be something done in that space. [01:26:03] Speaker A: Yeah. 100. Thank you so much for coming in. We really appreciate you. Shar. Just want to read out the number again. If anyone is impacted by suicide and the conversation, then please reach out to lifeline on 13, 11, 14. There's also the beyond now, which obviously beyond blue. It's beyond blue that did it. But beyond now we recommend that as well. Now I've got Billy Joel up, but did Maddie have a particular artist? We can have a look to see if there's a song. [01:26:34] Speaker C: You said Billy Joel. So the. She's got a list of tattoos that she wanted done, which I'm slowly getting done for her. And the one that was top of her list was Bill Billy Gel's Vienna. Oh, I have no idea either. But yeah, that's so strange. I have no idea what meaning. [01:26:51] Speaker A: I know we have a ton of Billy Joel. [01:26:52] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm sure you would have that. [01:26:54] Speaker A: We've got Vienna, but the other one. [01:26:56] Speaker C: Yeah, she was a massive Mamma Mia fan, so anything ever. What was her favorite movie? Mamma Mia. [01:27:02] Speaker B: I love that. [01:27:03] Speaker A: Oh, it looks like we. [01:27:05] Speaker C: And Freddie Mercury. She had the biggest crush on Freddie Mercury too, which was crazy. Yeah. [01:27:11] Speaker A: Vienna Vienna. Awesome. Okay, so this is dedicated to Maddie. And like I said. Yeah, we really appreciate you. [01:27:18] Speaker C: No, thank you. I appreciate you.